[non-fandom] Gay Activism and Debate

[escritoireazul]

So there were LGBT rallies/protests/marches/whatever people are labeling them as yesterday. Now there are discussions about whether the Community (of LGBT and allies) should do such things or should do work which makes them look nice and safe and makes friends. I think there are interesting things being said on both sides (artaxastra's original post is here and telesilla's post here. I'll link to other big ones as I see them, but the comments of both also have discussion.)

I don't know that I agree with artaxastra, but I think she has presented some things to talk about. However, I think there's a major problem with the fact she compares the Community's actions to the KKK's protests.

She was called out on this by a number of people, and someone else commented that people were misjudging her/misinterpreting what she was trying to say. So in this thread, I made this comment in response:

a_nightengale
Oh FFS, no, she isn't. She was talking about how people's react to protests. What part of:

Protests cause people to solidify their opposition and inspire them to give more money, time and effort to the cause the protesters are protesting. Protests do not convince people that they are wrong. They make them angry, frustrated, enraged or frightened.

don't you understand? If it makes it easier, instead of KKK substitute NRA or NARAL.

Me
don't you understand? If it makes it easier, instead of KKK substitute NRA or NARAL.

If those substitutions work just as well, why aren't they in the original post instead of something which does stir people's blood and put them on the defensive from the beginning? Especially in a post about making friends instead of putting people on the defensive or angering them, etc.

I think she has some interesting points, especially about the other work that should be done, though I think that work can and should be done in addition to the rallies/protests/whatever they're being labeled. However, I think a lot of that is getting lost in the fact that people are interpreting the KKK comparison/analogy/reference/whatever as an attack on them.

Obviously, I don't know what she intended, and I don't give a lot of weight to authorial intent, because no matter what she intended, the effect is to do pretty much exactly the same thing she is advising against.

Comparing activities to the KKK, however distant you (and, based on your interpretation, she) thinks it is from an actual comparison, does not convince people they are wrong. It makes them angry, frustrated, enraged, or frightened.






I also have an issue about the way how in many of her responses, artaxastra keeps going back to the idea that the Community shouldn't do these things because we need to win friends because of the way California can reject things by popular vote. Which is, perhaps, a valid point, but this is not just about California. The end goal is greater than any one state.

I've seen people I know on both sides of the discussion, and I am really intrigued by their responses. People are saying very smart things, and it is making me consider what I believe about the various options. (On top of discussions I've been having with people here, too.)

I've just found myself a) over-thinking what icon to use and b) freezing with the snow and the low clouds outside. I hate this state. I'm going to have to get up the strength (and warm clothes) to go outside and meet up with people for a writing thing soon, but oh, it's yucky out. Better than it was earlier, though.

Comments

[deborahw37.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the links. It's a fascinating discussion.

I see no dichotomy between carrying on quietly working for change and getting out on the streets and saying "You took away our rights and we're angry" . Both are needful, both are effective.

The reference to the KKK was ill judged and offensive and, in my view, derailed the argument.


I'm against violence of all kinds but the only things I've disapproved of in the massive response to the passing of prop 8 have been the racism in some of the early responses and a few ill judged actions which have made the news and possibly had a negative impact ( for example the reports of white powder sent to a church)

So I say, march. protest, rally, lobby, boycott,build bridges, educate, inform and organise . All at the same time because equality of opportunity in marriage needs not only to be made law but to be made safe . So safe that it need have no fear of being overturned. At the same time we need to ensure that the rights of the minority are never again decided by majority vote. And to do that is going to take a multi- faceted approach in which everyone who supports equality has something to contribute.

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

I think (and I'm speaking for someone else) that the "what the hell is wrong with you?" thinking wrt the protests stems from the fact that some of the protests were aimed at churches and have palpable anti-Christian vibe. So the OP over there was disheartened that the gheys are working against their better interests because mainstream culture will be all "oh lawdy, the gheys IS anti-Jesus!" or something similar.

Protesting churches is NOT on the agenda of old skool queer rights activists.

[deborahw37.livejournal.com]

I hope that the God some of these people claim to believe in will utterly reject their bigotry . I sort of want to be a spy on the walls of the pearly gates on the day that many of the religious right and the LDS try to claim their *reward*

And if churches campaigned to take away a basic human right then those churches get to see how they have angered those against whom they seek to discriminate.

Of course it helps if the protests are aimed at the churches involved rather than at Christianity in general.

And it helps if the protesters continue to espouse a belief in rejecting racism, sexism, disablism ,ageism but also add to that a commitment not to discriminate on the grounds of belief or absence of belief . There are bigots in the LDS church and in many other churches . But there are also branches of Christianity which actually practice what they preach and welcome the GLBT community, not only into the congregation but the priesthood.

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Preachin' to the choir, babe. Look at my lj for evidence.

[deborahw37.livejournal.com]

I just did ! *points to icon*

[apathocles.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't see why we can't have a combination of tactics. They can both be used effectively. As long as protests are peaceful and not giving ammunition to the opposition (attacking churches, et cetera), then I don't see the problem. People need to rally around each other and feel solidarity, so they can be reminded that they're not alone.

And really, there aren't too many equal rights movements in recent history that didn't involve protest marches. Should African Americans have just stayed in their homes, waiting until the people behind the scenes made them look 'tolerable'** enough to the average white person for them to go, 'well, they're not so bad -- I think I'll let them have more rights'?

Maybe rallies could be more centrally organised. Have a (loose) plan, as far as things that should and shouldn't be said go. Pick a line of attack, and stick with it, so that we're pushing a more coherent (and constructive) message. I don't know.



**God, I hate that word.